Curse

Lothlorian Sassun · Jul 07, 2008, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

The game is only 9 skills anyway in terms of PuGs in PvE.

Oh, and by the way, you just described Ursan if it was underpowered.

hehe you noticed that didn't ya? hehe

My point is if you nerf the builds people are currently using people will simply move to a new build that is the most powerful for their class. Then people on the forum will be screaming to nerf the "New" build people are using until they nerf that... It is an Endless cycle that will NEVER stop and "balance" will never be achieved. Ursan is the only skill that balances out the professions so that every class can get into pugs provided they have a high norn rank. Yes Ursan is a mindless and requires no skill to play. Thank the maker because I have been in some really horrible Pug groups back in the day. I feel more confident that a brain dead person in a Pug doesn't have to think so we can get the mission done!

R10 Norn doesn't take that long with Hero Handbooks. Guildwars will never be balanced. If Ursan was removed tomorrow people would once again only take certain builds in Elite PvE with certain professions to fill the build requirements.

NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->NERF--> NEW BUILD--->QQ-->

upier · Jul 07, 2008, 06:56 PM // 18:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

The only people who "needed" PvE skills were people who lacked proper understanding, skill, and knowledge of the game. There are the exceptions of "unfitting" professions, but those needed a better in-depth inspection besides PvE skills.

Then it would come to how you "fix" the AI (and if you even consider the AI needs fixing, which I agree in terms of having them scatter to destroy the holy trinity): By fix, I'd assume making them smarter - which would include having them be able to adapt to hundreds of thousands of millions of skill combinations, new skills, new professions, new strategies, etc. Not only that, but there is a massive list of misc variables that can determine the outcome of a battle.

And even then, it would still be just as hard to provide a challenge. PvE is mostly easy due to one reason: static builds. Not because of encountering the "unknown" (which you rarely ever do) but because the challenge laid before you twists and turns, but never changes. The challenge comes in developing the best and most successful team build for the area, and how will you use the best of it's abilities. Even if you give substantial upgrades to the AI, this is what it will always come to. Computers are systematic, humans are not.

If you make the AI better - you remove their need to rely on overpowered PvE skills and stuff like double damage/double attack speed/...
That also removes the need to help out the players - the foes are using the same skills as we are - so if players are unable to win - they need to try harder.
You don't lose then because a foe kills you with one shot.
You lose because you are bad.

If I remember correctly - A.Net stated that they had to dumb down the AI for the player to even have a chance.
If not - they could still just do some basic things like:
1. remove the aggro bubble - there is no reason for the foe to not notice players when they cast a 5 sec MS.
2. if there are only 2 healing classes in the game - and if you are running a party of 4 foes - then the only monk kinda can't be a smitter.
3. there is no reason for the foes having 3 skills on their bar.
4. there is also no reason to have parties of foes that consist of 9 mesmers. Sure they are annoying - but a gimmick is a gimmick. Balanced party builds would be much better.
5. foes could be able to run away and call for re-enforcements.
6. and that comes into play before you need to improve their actions - there is no reason for the foe to not understand that [power drain] should be used as e-management rather then their opening move.

And yes - at the end of the day - the player will still win.
But that's kinda the point of PvE.

Tyla · Jul 07, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Guildwars will never be balanced.

There is no game that will ever be perfectly balanced.

Balances just try to aim at this "perfect balance". However, builds changing is a good thing.

Oh, and by the way, some people don't like grinding, or don't like the playstyle of Ursan. What about them? Yeah, screw them.

Professions can actually run slight variables without the grind existing too.

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you make the AI better - you remove their need to rely on overpowered PvE skills and stuff like double damage/double attack speed/...
That also removes the need to help out the players - the foes are using the same skills as we are - so if players are unable to win - they need to try harder.

The reason I gave that list and naming off is because addressing all of those issues, being aware of all those variables, all in the effort to make the foe "smarter" would be a job for no one other than Superman. This is why you don't see such a "balance" in most other games: A similar sense of achievement, enjoyment, challenge, and fun can be reached by much more relaxed means.

I wouldn't say that the "buff and overpowering" of all monsters is a bad design choice (it's pretty much the kind of challenge I've been playing my whole life), it's just not what "they could have done". The only reason it's iffy is because some professions weren't well suited for this type of gameplay and some of the issues you see with other classes in these environments.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

You don't lose then because a foe kills you with one shot.
You lose because you are bad.

Interestingly enough, many would say that you wouldn't be killed by a foe with one shot if you were good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If I remember correctly - A.Net stated that they had to dumb down the AI for the player to even have a chance.
If not - they could still just do some basic things like:
1. remove the aggro bubble - there is no reason for the foe to not notice players when they cast a 5 sec MS.
2. if there are only 2 healing classes in the game - and if you are running a party of 4 foes - then the only monk kinda can't be a smitter.
3. there is no reason for the foes having 3 skills on their bar.
4. there is also no reason to have parties of foes that consist of 9 mesmers. Sure they are annoying - but a gimmick is a gimmick. Balanced party builds would be much better.
5. foes could be able to run away and call for re-enforcements.
6. and that comes into play before you need to improve their actions - there is no reason for the foe to not understand that [power drain] should be used as e-management rather then their opening move.

Definitely agreed. It's the little things that should be addressed that will give an overall more enjoyable, challenging, and more fulfilling experience in Guild Wars.

What sucks, though, is that ANet have already done this for numerous groups of baddies. People hardly notice it, too. It took me a third playthrough in NF to realize how much more balanced the Kournan soldiers were compared to the rest of the monsters.

And if they did indeed have to nerf the AI, I'd love to see it unnerfed for HM >: ) Anything to make it more fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And yes - at the end of the day - the player will still win.
But that's kinda the point of PvE.

I meant at the end of the day the player will win through their build set up and the staticicity of PvE.

DreamWind · Jul 07, 2008, 08:08 PM // 20:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

We're trying to "recreate Guild Wars"? If anything, what many here have been advocating for is unrecreating GW from the sloppy and generic turn it's taken.

You just hit the nail flat on the head. Keep at it buddy.

Crom The Pale · Jul 07, 2008, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If you make the AI better - you remove their need to rely on overpowered PvE skills and stuff like double damage/double attack speed/...
That also removes the need to help out the players - the foes are using the same skills as we are - so if players are unable to win - they need to try harder.
You don't lose then because a foe kills you with one shot.
You lose because you are bad.

If I remember correctly - A.Net stated that they had to dumb down the AI for the player to even have a chance.
If not - they could still just do some basic things like:
1. remove the aggro bubble - there is no reason for the foe to not notice players when they cast a 5 sec MS.
2. if there are only 2 healing classes in the game - and if you are running a party of 4 foes - then the only monk kinda can't be a smitter.
3. there is no reason for the foes having 3 skills on their bar.
4. there is also no reason to have parties of foes that consist of 9 mesmers. Sure they are annoying - but a gimmick is a gimmick. Balanced party builds would be much better.
5. foes could be able to run away and call for re-enforcements.
6. and that comes into play before you need to improve their actions - there is no reason for the foe to not understand that [power drain] should be used as e-management rather then their opening move.

And yes - at the end of the day - the player will still win.
But that's kinda the point of PvE.

The big flaw with that logic is that people would NOT try harder, they would get frustrated and quit. Yes not all, some would learn and adapt, but most of the casual gamers would be driven away if the game was any more difficult than it currently is.

"Fun Now" was quoted by ANET as thier policy regarding GW. In order to achive the higher AI lvl's on Dungeons/missions/Elite Zones you would have to create multiple AI's.

1) AI lvl 0 for new players and any monster/mob under lvl 10.
2) AI lvl 1 for new players to increase thier game play/skill affects monsters/mobs lvl 11-19.
3) AI lvl 2 for Max level players affects lvl 20-24 monsters/mobs.
4) AI lvl 3 affects ALL boss monsters, varies only by number of skills they are given.
5) AI lvl 4 active in Elite zones and Final missions/end game content/quests.

As it stands now we have maybe 3 AI lvls, one for Hench/heros one for monsters/mobs and one for the Charr in GWEN(they seam to act a bit differnetly than average AI monsters/mobs)

How much more complicated would the game be to create all these, and possibly more, AI's just to give PvE players a challenge more in line with PvP?

Chthon · Jul 07, 2008, 10:20 PM // 22:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelic Upstart

[N]ever has SR alone enabled anyone to steamroll the game in every area like Ursan does now.

@ Carinae: Stop feeding the troll. Newsflash: Upier is a troll, and he loves to troll posts about SR. He was a troll when I first encountered him on gwonline; he's a troll now; and he'll be a troll tomorrow. Responding to him isn't going to accomplish anything. It's not like it's possible to convince a troll of anything, and every moderately intelligent person on the forums can already see for themselves that SR doesn't even remotely approach Ursan's power level. Responding to his crap because it annoys you is only going to encourage him to post more crap, which is only going to make you more annoyed.

@ Sab: I disagree with your position that the SS and N/Rt could continue to function at full efficiency without energy from the MB. In my experience, both builds (and any other necro build for that matter) can suffer a power failure if you (1) run into a monster or two that unexpectedly refuses to die quickly and easy, or (2) run into bad luck with the timer. It happens frequently enough to be an issue. Having the MB around creates a buffer that helps you get through those patches before your energy dries up completely -- "oops the monsters didn't die like they were supposed to, but, fortunately, a couple of minions did die"; "oops, we killed monsters number 4 through 8 with AoE at 14.5 sec and got no energy from them, and now monsters 9 through 17 are closing in, but, fortunately, monsters 9 through 17 are going to kill some minions before they get to us." Removing that buffer would definitely hurt these builds. Probably not enough to crush them into the garbage that most nerfed builds turn into, but you really can't deny that they'd be worse for the wear because of it. And, ultimately, that's not a bad thing -- we want to nerf things lightly enough that they don't become unplayable garbage.

For the record on SR:
1. The timer is the single biggest issue affecting SR right now. It's very, very bad for a long list of reasons I've described elsewhere. It needs to be removed.
2. The SR-sharing mechanic that Sabway uses is no doubt overpowered. It could be eliminated by removing SR from minions. The cost of minions spells would have to be DRAMATICALLY reduced at the same time to avoid breaking every minion build with this change.
3. The ability to us SR to power essentially secondary-class-only builds (such as the N/Rt healer) might be overpowered. I'd like to see them without SR-sharing before passing judgment. IF it turns out that removing SR-sharing isn't enough of a nerf for these builds, then the best suggestion I've seen is "reverse expertise" -- secondary-profession skills would cost 1e more for every 2 ranks of SR for example. This would essentially halve your SR rank relative to secondary-profession skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by R.Shayne

Does anyone here actually believe the people abusing these skills such as Shadow Form or Ursan Blessing are bad players? They are abusing the skill because it gets them to end reward faster or allows them to farm the most profitable areas.

Well, yes, with qualifications. I've signed up with Ursan PUGs (usually as a healer) and part-Ursan PUGs from time to time. In my experience, the Ursan players usually deserve their reputation as totally skill-less noobcakes. They are remarkably bad. On rare occasions I have met skilled players using Ursan to move things along more quickly (usually incomplete guild teams picking up a few people via GLF spam). The things they do to the monsters are just sick and wrong. However, they are a distinct minority. Most of the Ursan users I've encountered are really very bad at the game.
As for SF users, I think they tend a little more towards being good players. Anyone who was interested in partaking of the second-best farm available at the time was doing it, and people who keep track of such things tend to be heavily-invested, skilled players. (For those wondering what the best farm at the time was, ask yourself: What nearly tripled in price during the SF ecto farming frenzy? Yeah, I figured that one out too late to cash in...) Also, SF farming did take some modicum of skill. I tried to teach it to an Ursan-addict I know and he just couldn't pull it off. He gave up after wasting like 15k in entry fees without ever reaching the plains.

[edit:
@ Crom: Presuming they used a behavior/arbitrator model for their AI (which would be the best choice IMO), then it would be relatively easy to add intelligence thresholds to the arbitrator. I think the real obstacle is that a-net doesn't seem to have anyone with really solid AI skills working for them -- or, if they do, they haven't seen fit to dedicate that person's time to making really solid AI.]

poignant · Jul 07, 2008, 11:08 PM // 23:08

You know what I find it shocking that both sides of the argument claim, you only want us to play one style, the game is unbalanced no need to look at pve or pvp to see it very evident.

How about you see it like it is, GW = no balance to every aspect of the game, stop flaming each other, no one will be happy with any change fact, skills are broken, this is also a FACT

Nerf all they like

adept and over come its simple guys... Thats exactly what will happen with one nerf, New cookie cutter build next week. You guys really this new to the game?

Carinae · Jul 07, 2008, 11:10 PM // 23:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

The problem is exactly the energy returned. The SS and the N/Rt can both function perfectly without the minion engine, while the MM ends up powering itself. If you take away all SR sharing and remove the timer, the two former templates would still work verbatim. The only effect would be that the MM cannot continue to spam 10-15 energy skills on recharge and would thus need changes to its build.

The basis of comparison between SR and energy management skills is the energy returned. Consider why people run N/Rt healers and rarely Rt/ primaries with the same template. A N/Rt can pump out more healing because Soul Reaping outclasses Offering of Spirit as energy management.

I want you to examine the situation more closely, because you've actually hit on the point without realizing it. The abuse of Sabway is the MM fueling the N/Rt healer. It allows bad players who are killing at low rates to keep the healer constantly energized. It automatic e-management at low kill rates, drawn from the MM. THAT'S why it is so popular...it props up bad players. That's why the sharing effect needs to be removed.

Bad players and heroes are terrible at managing energy. Sabway allows them to keep the healer running even when they aren't very effective at PvE. If you're already effective at PvE, then yes, the N/Rt still works. But it doesn't matter, because you're already good at PvE. You could replace the N/Rt with a monk and never miss a beat.

Lets take the MM out of Sabway, you're left with the N/Rt healer and the SS. It's the combined effect of the party that keeps the healer and the SS juiced up. You and I both know that the SS alone isn't smashing through enemies fast enough to keep himself fueled. So, we're down to the healer as the real reason for the imbalance and the apparent strength of SR. It's extremely effective because heroes (and bad monks) are piss poor at managing their energy and the Rit spells are very strong.

There is a clear case here for arguing that it's not SR that's the problem with the character. Either the Rit healing spells are too effective and need toned down, or you could make a case that Divine Favor needs a buff...which would encourage the use of an actual monk.

SR is known to be very strong, and it tends to get blamed first for everything, because people can tell that something isn't balanced...it must be SR. What I'm asking you and everyone else to look at is the actual situation. The only actual problem is specifically in the case of N/Rt where TWO strong effects come into play at the same time.

If SR alone was the culprit, you'd see SR fueling everything and Necromancers DOMINATING over use of all other classes. You don't see N/E firebombers, or N/Mo healers, or N/W uber-warriors. You don't see solo-builds fueling off SR. It's ONLY with the case of N/Rt that there's a problem. That's absolutely key. I'm not saying SR isn't strong. Not saying it isn't going to always need constant balance evaluation, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Snow Bunny · Jul 07, 2008, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

There is no game that will ever be perfectly balanced.

Starcraft.

Ontopic:

I don't remember who said it, but someone said any primary attribute that's somehow tied to innate energy-management/abuse is bad for the game. I wholeheartedly agree with this.

I mean, something like Divine Favor works well. I personally believe it works well because it's a nice little bonus that if invested into, will work quite nicely without being ridiculous.

Something like Expertise/Soul Reaping/Leadership is idiotic because players will find ways to subvert the conceived boundaries of the ability and abuse the shit out of it.

I agree with Sab that the trio could work without the minion engine. If Soul Reaping only applied to the death of opponents, it might be a better, more balanced attribute, but the way it works now, you're supplanting Monk energy-management skill with powerhealing from heroes with infinite energy.

Leadership is idiotic as well. Anyone who's ever played a paragon, or imbagon'd in particular, can attest to the absolute ridiculous energy provided by spamming Save Yourselves!

@ Carinae.

The way SR used to work though, you legitimately could fuel whatever you wanted.

@ Upier

Soul Reaping is bad, but Ursan is worse.

Bryant Again · Jul 07, 2008, 11:31 PM // 23:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The big flaw with that logic is that people would NOT try harder, they would get frustrated and quit. Yes not all, some would learn and adapt, but most of the casual gamers would be driven away if the game was any more difficult than it currently is.

When you have the possibility of "turning players away", then what you do is provide lower levels of difficulty. You do not make the hardest level(s) of difficulty the easier.

Spazzer · Jul 08, 2008, 12:23 AM // 00:23

I know you spent a lot of time making this thread, but this thread isn't any more important than all the other ones in Sardelac Sanitarium, is it?

Bryant Again · Jul 08, 2008, 02:15 AM // 02:15

I dunno. I wouldn't consider adding a purple dinosaur costume as an armor to be as important as balancing the game.

Sha Noran · Jul 08, 2008, 02:31 AM // 02:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

I know you spent a lot of time making this thread, but this thread isn't any more important than all the other ones in Sardelac Sanitarium, is it?

The amount of time I spent writing this is a ripple in the wake of time I devoted to this game and gaining the experience I needed to know enough to put these suggestions together; I continue to hope that those few hours of mine were well spent, and it appears that the discussion in this thread is making some attempt at staying on topic.... at least to some degree.

Now then, I felt the urge to address certain issues being discussed in this thread, though I'm not a fan of replying directly to a series of quotes; such responses tend to misquote or take bits of sentences and thoughts and then mis-interperet them, occassionally quite intentionally. To keep my wit in check, I'll just give my statement regarding some of the ideas brought up...

Firstly, though I was originally opposed to them, I feel that consumables should be left as is. Such power allows all classes to run very interesting a creative builds that are not typically possible (that is, without the cons). Especially if Ursan were to be toned down, which I am relatively certain is one of the dev team's current goals, then I would leave consumables untouched; the players who abadon Ursan may experiment with interesting combinations of skills and cons that they considered but never tested due to the power of Ursan. With no more Ursan, within days or weaks, testing occurs on these ideas, and new builds are formed; removing consumables AND Ursan as viable build concepts greatly lowers the probability of current Ursan players quitting.

Secondly, many people have taken my original thoughts and posted suggestions as a spring-board for their own ideas. This is fine, and is an integral part of any forum discussion, however I feel that I must state that I'm only really in support of the changes I detailed in my first post. Many players who offer change suggestions, while good intentioned, are too focused in their range of play experience to understand the consequences of potential loop-holes when they are applied to the larger picture.

That stated, I have (believe it or not =]) read every post in this thread, and I appreciate all of the criticizm and replies. I hope that ANet takes the time to see the range of opinions being expressed; and I also hope that ANet considers the persons posting these opinions also. We are not robots spewing pages of responses that are pre-programmed, never change and don't matter.

In light of some points made, I feel that there are a few subjects I must offer a rebuttal for. Two of my proposals I now look back on and find to be a bit rushed together, that is, the removal of minion degeneration and the 2% debuff of secondary attributes for Soul Reaping. Other than those, which are too extreme (minions really must degenerate), I stand by the other things I've presented. In particular, regarding the minion cap being non-existant at 16 Death Magic or greater, I must say that the knee-jerk response of "omfg unlimited minions rolls everything" is really ignorant of the current state of the game. I cannot, however, say such a thing without providing examples or explaining how this is true, therefore I provide the following wall of text to support myself:

-Before I specify my points, in general I must say that unlimited minions obviously is not entirely game breaking on the PvE side and does not allow for the complete and super-effecient annihilation of zones; we know this for fact, because before the minion cap was in place, and before Verata's Sacrifice was nerfed, it was still not the best method of effecient killing available.
-One must consider three factors when evaluating the power level of a minion factory build; speed, complexity, and upkeep. Without being too extreme (i.e. writing out all of the skills that would be in the ideal build along with then breaking down it's DPS versus other builds), I can only say that the build would be too slow to start for how difficult it would be to upkeep, and an attempt to ease either of these will simply increase the overall complexity, which is already relatively high (that is, if you were hoping to keep at least some of those minions alive after agroing three or more groups at once, as minions love to do). It would be possible, but other builds would remain more effective.
-12 man areas are already equipped to halt Minion reliant groups. The Deep's teleporters would make it near impossible to get started, and the lack of corpses in certain areas would be devastating, draining additional time from the group to re-manufacture an army; this is without mentioning certain room's environmental affects, which would provide obstacles not worth tackling due to the ease with which other builds' effectiveness is already proven. Urgoz' Warren's environmental affects would weigh heavy on a minion team also, as the Weakness would crush your DPS, and the exhaustion would be devastating to minion upkeep.
-Assuming a team decided to run such a build, it would require that the Minion Master be equipped with a Superior Rune. This has two dramatic affects; 1) The MM is now at a lower health than modern groups are used to, with all the health buffs and everything else that is now available. His health being lower means he is naturally a higher priority target than anything with higher health than him (and I dare ANet to even suggest that that isn't a major factor in AI targetting, heh...), and it's simple fact that MM death is almost instant failure for a Minion factory. Also, 2) Superior Death Runes would probably greatly increase in price. To curve the repercussions of this, I would reccommend a triple gold armor drop rate weekend at the end of the week that introduces this update to inject some Sup Runes into the economy.
-Human Minion Master bars do not run themselves; being someone who actively played with both good and bad MMs back when minions were unlimited, I must say that it takes significant skill to be able to maintain an actually massive army. Without the aid of minion generated Soul Reaping and with no Verata's Sacrifice, I estimate that it would take even more skill, despite the readily available BIP that might be brought in the build regardless.

That all now said, I can only really add to this post that I'm getting a good laugh everytime someone posts a morbid quip regarding ANet's indifference to PvE gameplay. It's rare to observe people so completely ignorant of a game's evolution.

Spazzer · Jul 08, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

I dunno. I wouldn't consider adding a purple dinosaur costume as an armor to be as important as balancing the game.

You're right. Sardelac Sanitarium is for all suggestions not relating to game balance.

I'm not usually one to back-seat moderate, but this thread is 14 pages long and nobody has noticed.

Bryant Again · Jul 08, 2008, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spazzer

You're right. Sardelac Sanitarium is for all suggestions not relating to game balance.

The exceptions are very far and few between ; )

draxynnic · Jul 08, 2008, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

If SR alone was the culprit, you'd see SR fueling everything and Necromancers DOMINATING over use of all other classes. You don't see N/E firebombers, or N/Mo healers, or N/W uber-warriors. You don't see solo-builds fueling off SR. It's ONLY with the case of N/Rt that there's a problem. That's absolutely key. I'm not saying SR isn't strong. Not saying it isn't going to always need constant balance evaluation, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Well, you don't see N/Mo healers because they're N/Rts instead

. Ritualist heals are generally more secondary-friendly then Monk heals, since they aren't balanced with the assumption of DF being present.

And N/Ws are just silly. Not just for armour - most Ws are fueled more by adrenaline anyway. Now, if you'd said N/Ds or N/As... but of course, they have their own forms of E-management...

Still, people looking at SR alone are certainly missing the point that SR isn't the only source of godly E-management. You don't see N/E firebombers because a well-built and well-played Elementalist can also feel like virtually infinite energy - in fact, I've heard that E/Mo protection builds have started coming back into fashion. Even the humble nerfed-so-many-times-its-not-funny Mesmer can usually manage its own energy management, although dipping into Elementalist for GOLE is a common practice.

SR-fuelled builds are, admittedly, a lot harder to mess up which is why they tend to work better for heroes... but for a decent player, other options can be, and often are, better.

Regarding the synergy between SR from a MM to other necros in the party: I've given one suggestion for modifying SR, but the thought strikes me that the easiest way to remove this engine without impacting too much on the actual MM would be to make minions only provide SR to the controller, just like spirits. Heck, make it work that way for all created creatures - instead of a large amount of energy being released as with a free creature's death, there's only just enough for the controller to reclaim some of the created creature's essence... if they know how.

upier · Jul 08, 2008, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Interestingly enough, many would say that you wouldn't be killed by a foe with one shot if you were good.

The first time I ran into Molotov.
I didn't even know he was there until I got hit by his 1k welcome shot.
Yeah, I will take my punishment for not being careful to what happens in the environment around me - but that might be a "bit" too severe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What sucks, though, is that ANet have already done this for numerous groups of baddies. People hardly notice it, too. It took me a third playthrough in NF to realize how much more balanced the Kournan soldiers were compared to the rest of the monsters.

And if they did indeed have to nerf the AI, I'd love to see it unnerfed for HM >: ) Anything to make it more fun.

Would you still not notice the difference if this was your first GW game?
We came into C3 having completed Factions and C1 - and Kourna is a semi-starting area.
Kournan teams ARE actually quite annoying - Whirling-rangers, support/damage paras, crippling dervishes, monks who run away ... not too shabby!

They'd just need to build on this for the later areas - since PS just negates all the difficulty they throw at us if the increased difficulty comes from a few hundred hp hits.
Throw in Aegis and it's GG versus 10 warriors/rangers groups.

(Look at Torment and the Shadow groups. If I am acting like a moron - my party wipes. Once again - not too bad. The guys are running slowdowns, minions, hexes that make us miss, on top of some nasty damage, ...
It's a very decent start.
Now modify their behavior with things I've said above - aggro bubble, reinforcements, additional support, ....
It could be interesting!)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

The big flaw with that logic is that people would NOT try harder, they would get frustrated and quit. Yes not all, some would learn and adapt, but most of the casual gamers would be driven away if the game was any more difficult than it currently is.

If we KNOW this - then there IS a reason why Ursan is in the game.
The same thing happens if you nerf Ursan then.
Which means that people want a dumb game and A.Net is doing the only smart thing that they can - catering them.
Unless we want something better?

Crom The Pale · Jul 08, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Well, you don't see N/Mo healers because they're N/Rts instead

. Ritualist heals are generally more secondary-friendly then Monk heals, since they aren't balanced with the assumption of DF being present.

And N/Ws are just silly. Not just for armour - most Ws are fueled more by adrenaline anyway. Now, if you'd said N/Ds or N/As... but of course, they have their own forms of E-management...

Still, people looking at SR alone are certainly missing the point that SR isn't the only source of godly E-management. You don't see N/E firebombers because a well-built and well-played Elementalist can also feel like virtually infinite energy - in fact, I've heard that E/Mo protection builds have started coming back into fashion. Even the humble nerfed-so-many-times-its-not-funny Mesmer can usually manage its own energy management, although dipping into Elementalist for GOLE is a common practice.

SR-fuelled builds are, admittedly, a lot harder to mess up which is why they tend to work better for heroes... but for a decent player, other options can be, and often are, better.

Regarding the synergy between SR from a MM to other necros in the party: I've given one suggestion for modifying SR, but the thought strikes me that the easiest way to remove this engine without impacting too much on the actual MM would be to make minions only provide SR to the controller, just like spirits. Heck, make it work that way for all created creatures - instead of a large amount of energy being released as with a free creature's death, there's only just enough for the controller to reclaim some of the created creature's essence... if they know how.

The bold text brings us back to the point I made before, about secondary skill abuse being the real problem here.

From Touch Rangers through Mystic Regen Elementalist up to Necro/Ritualists Healers its the abuse of secondary profession skills that is the true cause of our current problems.

Secondary professions were meant to SUPLIMENT a chars primary not OVERWHELM it.

What we require now is a means of allowing skills to be powerful for a primary profession AND usable for a secondary profession WITHOUT becoming overpowered. Wheather its by cutting all DMG/Healing by 50% if the skills belongs to your secondary prof or by changing break points of attributes something needs to be done.

Boogz · Jul 08, 2008, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

3. Sabway

Proposed changes tied to solving this problem:

* Minion deaths no longer trigger Soul Reaping.Energy cost of minion skills reduced

* Removed the Soul Reaping timer.

* The maximum minions possible for a Necromancer to raise is still limited by their Death Magic attribute, however, Necromancers who achieve 16 Death Magic may raise an unlimited number of minions.

Made an alteration to one of your suggestions, with this You'll fix the soul reaping problem on both PvE and PvP, however, SR shouldn't reduce the effectiveness of your secondary profession skills, this would make necro builds that use secondary profession skills weak, I know that it's basically due to the N/Rt healers, necros have energy management, while Spawing Power is weakest primary attribute in the game. Half of the problem is on Soul Reaping(with your suggestion it would be fixed), and the other half is on Spawing Power.

I can't see a good reason to remove degeneration from minions, if you remove this we would have a team build with 7 minion masters and a sac necro with blood of the master, infinite minion factory ftl.

What's the point of increasing the number of heroes allowed in party from a single player to 7? that's like "buy NF or EotN or you'll suck", henchmen would be pointless, the only changes that I'd like to see in the hero system is a type of limit for heroes, I.E. : if player A puts Livia on a party, player B can't put Livia.I know that this would be a huge nerf, but it would balance stuff like 6-man sabway, that is basically a /win PvE